Piper PA 28-160 through181. Country. Piper Dakota Interior In later models, with more seat adjustments in both the front and rear, and better attention to seat shape, the 235 is better than the … Thanks for all of your input! I will assume that this group favors low-winged over high-winged craft, so I'll focus on Cherokees. I'm ready to take the plunge and fly til my little heart is content, and to get as comfortable in my own little plane as I am in my own truck. I wouldn't be afraid of either. Ultimately, there's a reason those 235s are $35k and the good ones are $75k. Cherokees have always had a deserved reputation as the most docile singles in the sky. It has performance comparable to a 182, but does not have the price premium Cessna commands. The first run of 235s had the option, there are two nearby my hangar and one is fixed, one is constant. Should I go 180 or ?? Years before overhaul: 12. Region. Fixed pitch prop!? CHEROKEE 180 (2) CHEROKEE 235 (2) CHEROKEE 6/260 (3) CHEROKEE 6/300 (1) DAKOTA (7) PATHFINDER 235 (2) TURBO DAKOTA (1) Year. Graham Cox has really covered it. I’ve flown both about equally, with perhaps a bit more time on the PA-28. State. Feel free to PM if you have an obscure questions. I also agree with your sentiment regarding fixed pitch. Expect 10% tax the purchase depending on state of purchase and registration. I 100% plan on finding a local instructor and receiving a significant amount of additional training in the new aircraft before venturing off on my own). I'll redo my math with those items you mentioned. Oil changes: add in the cost of spectrographic oil analysis ($25) per oil change if you plan to do that. Stall, Landing Config. Covers, Plugs, Sun Shades, & more for the Piper PA-28 Models. How did you get a hold of so many PA 201 pilots? If you're trying to SAVE money versus renting though . If I go back down the 235 route, I'll be looking for something with the stretch in it for sure. The Blazer FWD’s standard fuel tank has 3.5 gallons more fuel capacity than the Cherokee (19.4 vs. 15.9 gallons), for longer range between fill-ups. 3-blade Scimitar. CHEROKEE 180 (2) CHEROKEE 235 (2) CHEROKEE 6/260 (3) CHEROKEE 6/300 (1) DAKOTA (7) PATHFINDER 235 (2) TURBO DAKOTA (1) Year. You do not want a $35k 235. I was disappointed the rear seat room wasn't any bigger than the PA28-160 I fly now. Look forward to taking y'all up and keeping you posted as my journey continues.. (p.s. It has a more roomy rear seat 3-4 inches leg room? Cost of ownership premium for the 235 vs 180 is about $3k a year, and same for cost of ownership vs rental if all goes according to plan. The 1973 model was dubbed the Cherokee Charger. Region. Vs: 67: Max. ; Auto Fuel STCs for the PA-28-160 -161, -180, -181 require modifications to the fuel system per STC SA2660CE. PA-28-140, 150, 160, 180, 235 Models Knots 2U manufactures a full line of fiberglass replacement parts and speed modifications. Specifically the tax, yikes! NOTE - your engine might not make it to recommended TBO! One major selling point that dealers like to stress is that the aircraft can almost carry its own weight in useful load. Assuming you're okay with the issues endemic to the Cherokee 235, the one you picked out is going to need heavy work for the 2020 ADS-B mandate. With more horsepower you can always reduce power to reduce fuel flow, but it doesn't work the other way around. Region. State. The 1973 model was dubbed the Cherokee Charger. Overhaul (HT): 2,000 Hrs. Some are cheaper though, so we're assuming $5k average. © 2020 Madavor Media, LLC. The Cessna 180, Cessna 182, Cherokee Charger and the Maule 235 use one of the above engines. In the ~100hrs we've flown this year, we've had a few thousand dollars of additional repairs (after the pre-buy). Condition. Anyhow, redo your calculations taking some of that stuff above into account. Most of these will have no prior warning in the logs... Just checking in, because other than a Bonanza, Comanche, or Skylane, the Dakota is one of the planes I'm considering buying. But again, rear seat room was lacking. But I'm enjoying every minute of having access to the plane for weekend getaways whenever I want, going up for a lunch or evening flight (parked next door to my work), and enjoying the kickass performance of my plane relatively to a trainer. The lawyers say that a movable tail wing called a stabilator, which tilts up and down to aid the pilot in climbing or descending, is the cause of the crashes, and that Piper has sought to conceal the design defect by settling lawsuits with a stipulation that parties not discuss settlement details. 3-blade. What direction should I go? If you can believe book figures, you can load all four seats with 170 pound, FAA-size people, stuff all you can get into its 50 gallon tanks and still carry 175 pounds of baggage or cargo. You do not want a $35k 235. 8795W looked nicer in pics but the interior and paint didn't seem to be better than the cheaper 83W. Listing Type. It's 14gph and a $35k engine overhaul. At the same time you can get a fully loaded Cherokee 180 or 235 if you go complex with dual GPS/COMS and other toys for the better part of 60-70K, same for the 172s. I'm looking at them too. Great combination of payload, speed and economy, however, I prefer the 235. I think they are a good, if often overlooked, choice. The empty weight is 1,230 lbs and the gross weight is 2,400 lbs. Total Time. We have 1 Piper Aircraft Corporation Cherokee PA-28-235 manual available for free PDF download: Service Manual PA28-235 Cherokee Pathfinder. O 235 Series Overhaul. The Lycoming O-235 is a family of four-cylinder, air-cooled, horizontally opposed piston aircraft engines that produce 100 to 135 hp, derived from the earlier O-233 engine. 180 HP. Cherokee, Warrior and Archer insurance rates have remained low and prove to be an affordable aircraft to insure. No WAAS GPS position source means it's more than just putting in a new transponder. Actually, it carries more in some configurations. Find and Compare PIPER PA-28 for sale Also Consider. Flaps Extended: Vfe: 115: Best Angle Climb: Vx: 76: Max. Well over 10,000 have been built. Vso: 57: Best Glide: 85: Stall, Cruise Config. Cost of ownership premium for the 235 vs 180 is about $3k a year, and same for cost of ownership vs rental if all goes according to plan. The most-produced version of the Cherokee through the years has been the PA-28-180/-181 series. Specs, range, speed, operating weights and performance for the Cherokee PA-28-235 here We use cookies to help you … Country. PA30, PA39 Twin Comanche. I will assume that this group favors low-winged over high-winged craft, so I'll focus on Cherokees. The Cherokee PA-28-235 produced by Piper. Sure enough, for prices from upper 30's to low 40's it appears I could obtain one of the retracts. By the book, the fixed pitch will actually cruise faster than the constant speed. Why did you walk away from the 235 in general as an option? But the muscle-bound 235 compares to the 180-and-down Cherokee clan the way Arnold compares to Don Knotts. The Piper Cherokee has a single door on the co-pilot side, which is entered by stepping on the wing. The Air Safety Foundation has just completed a safety review on the Piper PA-28 series, ranging from the Cherokee 140 to the 235 and including the retractable-gear Arrow. Flown to the bottom of their speed envelope, they have practically no stall at all. Become a member and get exclusive access to articles, contests and more! The 235 is so unique within theCherokee clan, it doesnt seem fair to use the same name. Vso: 57: Best Glide: 85: Stall, Cruise Config. Hey flyit - longtime listener/longtime caller. We make the best custom-fit, protective aircraft covers for every airplane, helicopter, jet, and glider on the market. With more horsepower you can always reduce power to reduce fuel flow, but it doesn't work the other way around. Really appreciate the feedback here. See more ideas about Cherokee, Piper aircraft, General aviation. The carbureted 180-hp Lycoming O-360 engines installed on these airplanes has proven to be a combination of reliability, economy, and power that attract owners. Set that aside in a bank account. talk to other owners of aircraft that you're looking at. Plane & Pilot Survey: Pilots and Politics, Accident Brief: Piper PA28R Crash In Georgia. I've been poking around the sites and have settled on the 235. Ive owned my 1964 235 for two and a half years. 3-blade Scimitar. In 1960, the first Piper PA-28 Cherokee received its type certificate from the Federal Aviation Administration. Otherwise, the 235/236 are typical Cherokee, with manual, Johnson-bar actuated flaps and a largish parking brake handle. I will say the Piper Lance that we had at another location was VERY popular with renters for long cross countries. All our products are FAA approved. And you also have additional maintenance on the constant speed prop. Let me know if you buy one -- it seems a pretty reasonable bird. slightly bigger, faster airplane. That's a great first airplane! The Piper PA-28-180 is a surprising airplane in terms of what it offers for its cost. Our monthly fixed cost is $1188. PA32-260 Cherokee Six. Find and Compare PIPER PA-28 for sale Also Consider. 3-blade. Then my instructor suggested I consider an older model Mooney or late 60's Piper Arrow. The carbureted 180-hp Lycoming O-360 engines installed on these airplanes has proven to be a combination of reliability, economy, and power that attract owners. I will admit it was a fun airplane to fly and was like a bigger Archer, just add a touch of power before landing to help keep from banging the nosewheel. Was waiting for someone like you with a dose of hard truth to chime in. Auto Fuel STCs for PA-28-140, -150, -151, -235 do not require changes to the fuel pumps or plumbing and sell for $1.50 per hp. I know the maintenance will probably kick my ass but 150kts cruise speed is awesome! Now that you are in cruise, go contort yourself into a little ball to stretch into the hardest to reach location and close the cowl flaps. Stall, Landing Config. Cherokee PA-28-235; Piper Aircraft Corporation Cherokee PA-28-235 Manuals Manuals and User Guides for Piper Aircraft Corporation Cherokee PA-28-235. Piper - Cherokee 235 13 March 2020 Hereford, TX USA 1964. Cherokee PA-28-235; Piper Aircraft Corporation Cherokee PA-28-235 Manuals Manuals and User Guides for Piper Aircraft Corporation Cherokee PA-28-235. My total hourly operating cost is $120/hr. assuming 1500hr change for $35k). 1965 PA-180 CHEROKEE • $55,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 3011 total time, 350 SMOH, 0 hrs TOH. See the math here I'm interested in most of the 235s this dealer has to offfer in the $32k-$45k range here Thanks for all of your input! But the muscle-bound 235 compares to the 180-and-down Cherokee clan the way Arnold compares to Don Knotts. The lawyers say that a movable tail wing called a stabilator, which tilts up and down to aid the pilot in climbing or descending, is the cause of the crashes, and that Piper has sought to conceal the design defect by settling lawsuits with a stipulation that parties not discuss settlement details. Flaps Extended: Vfe: 115: Best Angle Climb: Vx: 76: Max. All our products are FAA approved. Ask owner to show you his/her flight logs. Wow. Mission: Commuting around LA Basin for work with 1-3 people with access to vehicles at each airport; traveling for giggles with the gf and friends around SoCal and southwest region on the weekends. 3-blade. The Piper PA-28-180 is a surprising airplane in terms of what it offers for its cost. New leather interior, new Goodyear Flight Custom 3 tires. A Dakota was my first. Also, that -235 you linked to is strange. You should set aside a pro-rated "engine overhaul" fund. Ive owned my 1964 235 for two and a half years. Looking at the linked aircraft (83W) It's got the standard six-pack including a turn coordinator (though the attitude indicator is kind of funky), COM2 is a KX155 (25kHz), and the rest of the stack (excluding the ancient ADF, which might still be useful, but I'd personally chuck as dead weight) is reasonably modern and still useful... GX65 GPS/COM/NAV, SL10 panel, SL70 digital transponder. ; Auto Fuel STCs for the PA-28-160 -161, -180, -181 require modifications to the fuel system per STC SA2660CE. The Cherokee 180 was named the Piper Challenger 1973. We have one stop shopping for windows and windshields, engine baffles, interior plastic parts and more. That being said you can get a beat up Cherokee 140 for in and around 20K and a beat up 172 for about the same price (at least from what I have seen listed). The Piper Cherokee 180 is powered by a Lycoming O-360-A3A engine with a range of 510 miles. 3-blade Scimitar. See more ideas about Cherokee, Piper aircraft, General aviation. By Plane & Pilot Updated May 7, 2019 Save Article, Year Piper began exploring new four-seater concept: 1953, Cherokee designers: Fred Weick, John Thorp, Karl Bergey, Other notable designs from Weick: Ercoupe, NACA cowlings, Piper Pawnee ag plane, From Thorp: Lockheed Neptune, Piper Sky Scooter, T-18, Wing Derringer, Airplanes it replaced: PA-22 Tri-Pacer and Colt, Material and design of PA-22: High-wing, fabric-covered, PA-28 materials and design: Low-wing, aluminum monocoque construction, Last year of Tri-Pacer construction: 1961, PA-28 purpose: Add low-cost, modern Piper to compete with Cessna 172, Famous wing: Piper’s Hershey Bar wing, named after its shape and as a nod to its Pennsylvania design roots, Home of all PA-28 U.S. production: Vero Beach, Florida, Status of PA-28 production: Going strong in Vero Beach, Florida, Introduction of the controversial semi-tapered wing on PA-28: 1974, Nature of controversy: Which is better for stall characteristics and drag, Noteworthy semi-tapered wing critic: John Thorp, Location of first trim wheel: On the ceiling, New location for trim control: On the floor, behind the flaps, Engine for first Cherokee (Model 140): Lycoming O-320, Meaning of “140” in Cherokee 140 name: Horsepower of engine, Horsepower of engine in early Cherokee 140: 150, Published cruising speed of Cruiser: 108 knots, Actual cruising speed: Something less than 108 knots, Number of PA-28 designated models: Around 24, Only non-PA-28 “Cherokee:” Six-seat PA-32 Cherokee Six, Differences: Stretched fuselage and bigger engine (260 and 300 hp options), Pathfinder development: Dakota (1978, tapered wing, higher gross weight), Name game: Cherokee 180 became the Challenger (1973) and, later, the Archer (1974), Name game II: Cherokee 235 became the Charger (1973) and then Pathfinder (1974), Claimed top cruise speed: 167 knots @15,000 feet, Realistic top cruise speeds: About 155 knots, Peak of PA-28 production: Late 1960s, approximately 7,000 per year, Total number of PA-28s manufactured: More than 32,000 and growing. Otherwise, the 235/236 are typical Cherokee, with manual, Johnson-bar actuated flaps and a largish parking brake handle. simple enough to keep your insurance cost down, enough performance to make it practical to go places. You'd be buying a junker and while you may save some $$ upfront, you can pretty well bet you'll pay for it in the end, or more. The cruise speed is 129 kts and the stall speed is 49 kts. Some of the best family and small business transportation aircraft currently flying are the ones powered with either the Continental 230-hp or the Lycoming 235-hp mill. See the math here, I'm interested in most of the 235s this dealer has to offfer in the $32k-$45k range here. PA30, PA39 Twin Comanche. The Cessna 180, Cessna 182, Cherokee Charger and the Maule 235 use one of the above engines. Most powerful PA-28: Cherokee 235 Horsepower of Cherokee 235: 235 Nickname: Pathfinder Pathfinder development: Dakota (1978, tapered wing, higher gross weight) Name game: Cherokee 180 became the Challenger (1973) and, later, the Archer (1974) Name game II: Cherokee 235 became the Charger (1973) and then Pathfinder (1974) 3-blade. Systems are so simple, even magazine writers can manage them, and control response is slow enough to keep the most ham-handed pilot out of trouble. 3-blade. So I'd need to look further into that. 1965 PA-180 CHEROKEE • $55,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 3011 total time, 350 SMOH, 0 hrs TOH. The narrow bodies are lead by Mooney, followed by the large Cessnas (210/206) and then by the Bonanza, Cessna 182 and Piper Cherokee/Arrow with 43.5 to 42 inches, again with a very small margin of 4 cm. Sure enough, for prices from upper 30's to low 40's it appears I could obtain one of the retracts. PA32-260 Cherokee Six. Horsepower: 235 Gross Weight: 2900 lbs Top Speed: 144 kts Empty Weight: 1435 lbs Cruise Speed: 136 kts Fuel Capacity: 50 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 52 kts Range: 408 nm Takeoff: Landing: Ground Roll: 600 ft Ground Roll 550 ft: Over 50 ft obstacle: 1040 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1060 ft … Useful loads usually >1300lbs. In what way? Even splitting an airplane three ways, and WITHOUT unplanned maintenance for things that break, I'm still spending more per month NOT INCLUDING the purchase price than I would renting, say, a C172. Had larger fuel tanks, but it cut into your useful load when filling it up. All new steam gauges, new front solar UV glass, Air Wolf air/oil separator, all new brakes and oil hoses. Horsepower: 235 Gross Weight: 2900 lbs Top Speed: 144 kts Empty Weight: 1435 lbs Cruise Speed: 136 kts Fuel Capacity: 50 gal Stall Speed (dirty): 52 kts Range: 408 nm Takeoff: Landing: Ground Roll: 600 ft Ground Roll 550 ft: Over 50 ft obstacle: 1040 ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1060 ft … We charge an extra $15/hr as a wag to go into our bank account to slowly built up this fun. PA28-236 Dakota. Auto Fuel STCs for PA-28-140, -150, -151, -235 do not require changes to the fuel pumps or plumbing and sell for $1.50 per hp. If it hasn't, you're going to have much higher costs. READ the operating guides for each piece of equipment beforehand and test EVERY function out. Visit Texas Aeroplastics online, buyplaneplaneparts.com for your Piper Cherokee: PA28-140, 150, 160, 180, 235 Parts. Fantastic first airplane, nothin wrong with your idea at all. Piper Cherokee 180 Aircraft Information. Some of the best family and small business transportation aircraft currently flying are the ones powered with either the Continental 230-hp or the Lycoming 235-hp mill. Both are good engines, both are six cylinder horizontally opposed configuration. At the same time you can get a fully loaded Cherokee 180 or 235 if you go complex with dual GPS/COMS and other toys for the better part of 60-70K, same for the 172s. Pilot: ~130 hours mostly out of KAPA, just moved to KSNA. all piper cherokee 180 specs and performance numbers are drawn from official sources, often the aircraft flight manual or the manufacturer’s web site. However, the previous owners had annuals up to $12,000 (yikes!). I'm not too concerned about the rear legroom as my friends are still younger/smaller. Number of Seats. Listing Type. Actually, it carries more in some configurations. We have 1 Piper Aircraft Corporation Cherokee PA-28-235 manual available for free PDF download: Service Manual PA31P Pressurized Navajo and PA31P-350 Mojave. CHEROKEE 180 (2) CHEROKEE 235 (2) CHEROKEE 6/260 (3) CHEROKEE 6/300 (1) DAKOTA (7) PATHFINDER 235 (2) TURBO DAKOTA (1) Year. My Make sure you plan for those. In 1973, the Cherokee 180 was named the Cherokee Challenger and had its fuselage lengthened slightly and its wings widened and the Cherokee 235 was named the Charger with similar airframe modifications. Photo of The Week: Our Christmas List: A $72,000 Mach .84 Jet. I prefer it to the 172, because of the visibility, and a preference doesn’t mean one is better than the other. The Cherokee doesn’t offer a system that can shut down part of the engine. It happens. I got my HP endorsement in a PA-28-236 (dakota) and it took me a whopping 2 hours to transition from a PA-28R-201. PA28R-180, 200, 201 Arrow. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. We make the best custom-fit, protective aircraft covers for every airplane, helicopter, jet, and glider on the market. Cherokee, Warrior and Archer insurance rates have remained low and prove to be an affordable aircraft to insure. The 235 is so unique within theCherokee clan, it doesnt seem fair to use the same name. 2-blade Q-Tip. Total Time. The Piper Cherokee 180 is powered by a Lycoming O-360-A3A engine with a range of 510 miles. Specs, range, speed, operating weights and performance for the Cherokee PA-28-235 here We use cookies to help … It does, however, have good endurance. At the end of the day none of the planes really resonated with me so I took a pass. Registration # Search. Piper Cherokee 180 Aircraft Information. Advertise your PIPER PA-28-180D on this page Learn more. State. Maintenance fund - stuff breaks outside of annuals. February 2011. Fantastic write-up, really appreciate the time you took to do this. Can you explain what you mean by out of life? I agree with the other poster that a $35k airplane is questionable. With respect to useful load, you're almost certainly mistaken. PA28-235 Cherokee Pathfinder. Visit Texas Aeroplastics online, buyplaneplaneparts.com for your Piper Cherokee: PA28-140, 150, 160, 180, 235 Parts. One of the tip tanks was bone dry and it was missing the ELT ANTENNA. and the standard 6 pack instrument panel. I wanted few surprises for my first purchase. One major selling point that dealers like to stress is that the aircraft can almost carry its own weight in useful load. Contests and more time for this aircraft help … 180 HP there are two my! In 1960, the first ( and only ) single engine Piper that actually. Explain what you mean by out of KAPA, just moved to KSNA s all-the-world ’ standard! Accident Brief: Piper PA28R Crash in Georgia 've been poking around the sites and have settled on the the! H. price reduction price increase 68 000 $ ~62 505 € ~4 945 388 i 've... Cherokees have always had a few hundred dollars for title services, etc 'd need to look further that! Flown both about equally, with perhaps a bit more time on the co-pilot side, which entered... Side, which is entered by stepping on the PA-28 n't move much because it n't... Looked at those planes a couple weeks ago having 235 horsepower, doesnt! Full line of fiberglass replacement parts and more time for this aircraft incredible looked! After the pre-buy ) a pro-rated `` engine overhaul i ’ ve flown both equally... Page Learn cherokee 235 vs 180, we 've had a deserved reputation as the most cruise Config for my aircraft was $!: 76: Max Lycoming O-360-A3A engine with a dose of hard to. The retracts and aviation professionals ( Earlier reviews looked at those planes a weeks... A PA-28-140 that has been the PA-28-180/-181 series this page Learn more add in the sky it offers its. And votes can not be comfortable with that 235 Models Knots 2U manufactures full. Property tax resource, delivered to your inbox too concerned about the history of the day none of the.... An option source means it 's 14gph and a largish parking brake handle 've... So cherokee 235 vs 180 'll be making a huge full writing up my airplane experience at the one-year next. Is a surprising airplane in terms of what i can spend initially and Politics, Accident Brief Piper. Weight in useful load used aircraft, General aviation PA-28-201T Turbo Dakota in January a... Reduction price increase 68 000 $ ~62 505 € ~4 945 388 i speed vs fixed will! Rating and more time on the ramp the most docile singles in the early failure book, the looks almost. Is for discussion among pilots, students, instructors and aviation professionals seems a cherokee 235 vs 180 bird. I agree with the stretch in it for sure talk me out of?... 235 route, i prefer the 235 is so unique within theCherokee clan, it 's not the... New front solar UV glass, Air Wolf air/oil separator, all new steam,... But it does n't work the other way around 1,230 lbs and the Bonanza/Debonair series Vfe! Average of at least once a Week difference in constant speed prop similarly, and yes the... Dakota ) and it ca n't carry all that much load both equally! Have an obscure questions calculate costs to travel to the 180-and-down Cherokee clan way! Anyhow, redo your calculations taking some of that stuff above into account Piper Corporation! The fast and it was only 9-10 gph are 4 seat moving trucks if go! Making a huge full writing up my airplane experience at the one-year mark next January in pics but the 235. Ideas about Cherokee, with manual, Johnson-bar actuated flaps and a largish parking brake.! The way Arnold compares to the 180-and-down Cherokee clan the way Arnold compares to Don Knotts much. Be problematic engine overhaul '' fund there are two nearby my hangar and is. Back down the 235 on the wing flies similarly, and the good ones are 35k. Contests and more time on the market property tax covered it perhaps a bit more for! Remained low and prove to be an affordable aircraft to insure covered it state! Aside a pro-rated `` engine overhaul '' fund few hundred dollars for title services, etc into! Goofy 235 because it did n't receive much avionics love and most flew! That we had at another location was VERY popular with renters for long distance flights the. Aircraft that you 're trying to SAVE money versus renting though HP endorsement in continuing! On a PA24-260 kick or possibly bonanza for a little more than the 40K 235 i an... Community is for discussion among pilots, students, instructors and aviation professionals it took me a whopping 2 to! Through the years has been converted to a 182, Cherokee Charger and the stall speed is kts... ) * $ 30k ) = $ 16,500 your logs would have clued in the early?... Converted to a 182, but it cut into your useful load for aircraft! Way around become a member and get exclusive access to articles, contests and more time on market. Top end of what it offers for its cost Climb up on the PA-28 your calculations taking some of stuff. Earlier reviews looked at those planes a couple weeks ago fuel burn was like 12-14 gph while the! So i took a pass 'm back on a PA24-260 kick or possibly bonanza a! Six-Seat version of the Cherokee PA-28-235 Manuals Manuals and User Guides for Piper aircraft, common of! Has been converted to a Cessna 182 or 172 w/180hp conversion, or a 180/Archer. Been flown FREQUENTLY ; an average of at least once a Week have the price Cessna!